Who Is Sarah Palin?
09-01-2008, 07:33 PM
#71
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QUOTE (tibbytib @ Sep 1 2008, 05:15 PM)
Jer - I really do think we see this issue from the same side of the street. I suppose my only argument is why not give gays and lesbians equal rights as any other "married" couple, regardless if they could "change" themselves. Even if there is no such thing as being born gay, (and I do agree that most gay people do have some kind of hardship in their younger years to trigger this), and you say their problem is simply a chosen one, then how exactly are they different then other people with differing social problems that still get all or their rights as a US citizen, even if they choose not to correct their "social" problem? Just because you think its gross and doesnt coincide with your beliefs, should they suffer giving up their rights to appease you? I dont agree with people who are sexually obsessed. Does that mean if you are a swinger and believe in that and practice that in your life, that your right to marry should be denied because you are monogamously challenged and a majority feels that you dont deserve the same rights as them simply because you are different?
I think you got me mixed up with someone else here my man, I did say I'd love for them to have the same rights and responsibilities as straight folks that are married, I just think it should be called something different. I don't think they should have fewer rights, they aren't sub human or sub American by any means.
BTW, I never said what they did is gross either. Anal and Blowjobs are fine by me, so is lesbian sex (omfg lesb0 sex ftw!!!), I just prefer to have my versions of these from a woman. LOL
Very well put BTW Tibbytib, run for president, I'll be your Veep.
QUOTE (Tibbychick @ Sep 1 2008, 05:29 PM)
I can see how Nobama is appealing to the younger generation. But he doesn't ignite the spark in me the way Hillary does. Listening to Nobama I tend to lose interest after the first couple of minutes, whereas with Hillary I hang on her every word, she has such passion and vigor when she speaks.
What I find kind of disturbing is that McSame forgot how many houses he owns.
What I find kind of disturbing is that McSame forgot how many houses he owns.
Now don't get me wrong, I like Hillary better than NObama, but I don't think I could have voted for her. She just seems SO frigging... rehearesed?
As for McCain, I think a lot of folks didn't see the entire interview, McCain was kinda ambushed with that in the middle of a conversation on the housing problem. Politicians are rich. He's been a politician for what, 30 years? Hell, I could forget. Someone asked me how many Gortex jackets I had once, I was wrong, by 2. LOL I had 4.
09-01-2008, 07:36 PM
#72
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Cited directly from about.com by Kathy Belge:
1. Joint parental rights of children
2. Joint adoption
3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6. Crime victims recovery benefits
7. Domestic violence protection orders
8. Judicial protections and immunity
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
Kathy Belge
Religious Tolerance, a site devoted to advocating differing beliefs in our society
Another good read on rights of married couples: Marriage benefits
She states many more laws, state and federal, that are unavailable to gay couples, even if they are in a state where Union partnerships are allowed. This list was pretty wide spread on the various sites I checked out to make sure this wasnt just a random list. Most sites state these rights as some of the more important rights.
If you ask me, thats a pretty big list. I would feel very discriminated against if these rights were denied to me.
1. Joint parental rights of children
2. Joint adoption
3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6. Crime victims recovery benefits
7. Domestic violence protection orders
8. Judicial protections and immunity
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
Kathy Belge
Religious Tolerance, a site devoted to advocating differing beliefs in our society
Another good read on rights of married couples: Marriage benefits
She states many more laws, state and federal, that are unavailable to gay couples, even if they are in a state where Union partnerships are allowed. This list was pretty wide spread on the various sites I checked out to make sure this wasnt just a random list. Most sites state these rights as some of the more important rights.
If you ask me, thats a pretty big list. I would feel very discriminated against if these rights were denied to me.
09-01-2008, 08:52 PM
#73
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Wow... uhm... I'm sorry, but that list doesn't mean much to me.
Let me try to break it down....
Domestic Violence Protection? You're right, because it's not legally a 'family member' but that's a simple TERM. You can still have alternatives, like a restraining order, file charges for assault and battery, among many other things that even those NOT MARRIED have rights to. That one doesn't belong.
Many others really don't make sense to me. I'm not saying the rights shouldn't be awarded to them, but they simply don't make sense as to why they're part of that list:
- Crime Victims Recovery Benefits... what does that matter if you're gay, straight, married, or 8 years old?
- Immigration and Residency for partners from other countries... we don't do that for married couples anymore.
- Social Security / Medicare... you aren't denied either of these benefits if you're gay, and you still have to pay them if you're gay. Don't understand this one either.
- Credit Protection... this doesn't make sense to me.
- Joint filing of tax returns... at least they threw in a few CONS with the PROS. Known as the "marriage penalty" or "marriage tax" where you pay higher taxes due to reaching higher tax brackets faster. Sure, you get a bigger deduction, but that's easily and quickly lost unless you work at Taco Bell for a living.
However,
- Spousal Veterans Benefits, Joint Adoption, Joint Parental Rights of Children, Child Support, Estate and Gift Tax Benefits (that's a stretch)... all these are only available to a married couple, husband and wife. These are legitimate complaints.
Okay, I think TibbyTib has FINALLY made his point. He has a viewpoint, I have a separate viewpoint. I don't think we should start making dozens of laws to change specifics on how gay marriage should be viewed. As Tibbychick eluded to earlier, I think it's become somewhat of a 'fad' lately. I've known three separate females personally, as friends, who have become lesbians between the ages of 16-20. I've known them for a while (they didn't know each other, not mutual friends so they didn't follow each other's choices) but I don't think any of them have always been lesbians. I think a few factors have influenced their decision, and I don't think it'll last for long (eh, except maybe one of them... but she went from druggie to stripper to lesbian to severe alcoholic to anorexic and not she's just a happy lesbian. That poor girl is in way too deep).
bottom line... I strongly feel, through my interaction and discussion with homosexuals, that it's either a choice or the result of personal experiences. Again, I don't feel that a small percentage of the population should be able to make changes to the world in which we live.
What if we changed out laws for PETA and it's TWO MILLION members were able to change our laws because of their beliefs and choices?
Let me try to break it down....
Domestic Violence Protection? You're right, because it's not legally a 'family member' but that's a simple TERM. You can still have alternatives, like a restraining order, file charges for assault and battery, among many other things that even those NOT MARRIED have rights to. That one doesn't belong.
Many others really don't make sense to me. I'm not saying the rights shouldn't be awarded to them, but they simply don't make sense as to why they're part of that list:
- Crime Victims Recovery Benefits... what does that matter if you're gay, straight, married, or 8 years old?
- Immigration and Residency for partners from other countries... we don't do that for married couples anymore.
- Social Security / Medicare... you aren't denied either of these benefits if you're gay, and you still have to pay them if you're gay. Don't understand this one either.
- Credit Protection... this doesn't make sense to me.
- Joint filing of tax returns... at least they threw in a few CONS with the PROS. Known as the "marriage penalty" or "marriage tax" where you pay higher taxes due to reaching higher tax brackets faster. Sure, you get a bigger deduction, but that's easily and quickly lost unless you work at Taco Bell for a living.
However,
- Spousal Veterans Benefits, Joint Adoption, Joint Parental Rights of Children, Child Support, Estate and Gift Tax Benefits (that's a stretch)... all these are only available to a married couple, husband and wife. These are legitimate complaints.
Okay, I think TibbyTib has FINALLY made his point. He has a viewpoint, I have a separate viewpoint. I don't think we should start making dozens of laws to change specifics on how gay marriage should be viewed. As Tibbychick eluded to earlier, I think it's become somewhat of a 'fad' lately. I've known three separate females personally, as friends, who have become lesbians between the ages of 16-20. I've known them for a while (they didn't know each other, not mutual friends so they didn't follow each other's choices) but I don't think any of them have always been lesbians. I think a few factors have influenced their decision, and I don't think it'll last for long (eh, except maybe one of them... but she went from druggie to stripper to lesbian to severe alcoholic to anorexic and not she's just a happy lesbian. That poor girl is in way too deep).
bottom line... I strongly feel, through my interaction and discussion with homosexuals, that it's either a choice or the result of personal experiences. Again, I don't feel that a small percentage of the population should be able to make changes to the world in which we live.
What if we changed out laws for PETA and it's TWO MILLION members were able to change our laws because of their beliefs and choices?
09-01-2008, 09:14 PM
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PETA is something completely different....they're a group of extremists who take extreme measures to prove their point. I'm a huge supporter of animal rights but even I would say that much of their tactics are ridiculous.
09-01-2008, 10:07 PM
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It's still a minority of the population with strong beliefs that laws should be changed.
Should hunting be outlawed?
Should animals be given special privileges and human rights removed in order to allow fish/deer/elk/birds to overpopulate?
Should we stop testing miracle drugs on lab rats, just because we might find a cure for AIDS, Cancer, or MD?
There are a couple million people who say we should. Regardless of their tactics, they're trying to change laws.
I already gave in to TibbyTib's argument. We have a disagreement on our views.
On to another topic... Go Palin!
But, I am curious TC - what about Hillary was so empowering? Your post referred to her ability to speak and her presentation as a orator. Could you expand on which political viewpoints that you were most captured by, OR those by Obama that you don't agree with?
Or you could talk about McCain's stance on issues and what you disagree with (besides gay rights)?
Should hunting be outlawed?
Should animals be given special privileges and human rights removed in order to allow fish/deer/elk/birds to overpopulate?
Should we stop testing miracle drugs on lab rats, just because we might find a cure for AIDS, Cancer, or MD?
There are a couple million people who say we should. Regardless of their tactics, they're trying to change laws.
I already gave in to TibbyTib's argument. We have a disagreement on our views.
On to another topic... Go Palin!
But, I am curious TC - what about Hillary was so empowering? Your post referred to her ability to speak and her presentation as a orator. Could you expand on which political viewpoints that you were most captured by, OR those by Obama that you don't agree with?
Or you could talk about McCain's stance on issues and what you disagree with (besides gay rights)?
09-01-2008, 10:52 PM
#76
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Jeremy - Right there with you man! I think it totally needs to be called something different. Its the semantics thats got everyone heated. I dont think it should be called marriage. AND, I think the gay activists make it harder on themselves and their cause trying to do so. I think they would get much further in their cause and gain those rights quicker if they resolved to call it something different.
There are millions of folks like Majik who believe whole heartedly that they should not be given those rights. The right to be "Married". Its a very deep family value, be it religious or strict moral upbringing. Is that wrong. Absolutely not. He has every right to think differently than me. But, one thing is inevitable. We are a country founded on tolerance. A solution needs to be made. Compromises need to be allowed that suits both sides. It may not be perfect for either side, but if it simply comes down to calling it something else, why not. Their legal rights would match that of a typical married couple, but the label might be something different. Everyone wins.
I hope you didnt take offense about my example man. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of things grossing you out. Dude, I've hung out with you long enough to know how "gross" YOU really are!!! Cough, Cough, SPONGE BOB!!
lmao.gif
Majik - YES!! I am glad I got my point across for you man! Sometimes I think I am being direct and straight forward when I am not. I am glad you called me out to really pinpoint my argument. It actually made me feel better about it. LOL! You by no means should give in to my arguments. You have some great points about some of the items that are on that list. I didnt come up with that list, no way am I that neurotic about getting my point across. The gay and lesbian activists did. I imagine they are at least somewhat educated about the subject they are fighting for, so I would assume that everything on the list has some significance, at least in their eyes, in the laws and rights that married straight couples have and gay partnership lack. You picked out the big ones, and the big ones, I believe, are the ones mandated mostly by the federal government. Yes, gays and lesbians are getting more and more states to lean in favor for their cause, but some of the rights they are seeking will not be met unless the federal government acknowledges their unions and grants rights to them.
But, I am glad I have FINALLY made myself clear to you. fing02.gif fing02.gif
There are millions of folks like Majik who believe whole heartedly that they should not be given those rights. The right to be "Married". Its a very deep family value, be it religious or strict moral upbringing. Is that wrong. Absolutely not. He has every right to think differently than me. But, one thing is inevitable. We are a country founded on tolerance. A solution needs to be made. Compromises need to be allowed that suits both sides. It may not be perfect for either side, but if it simply comes down to calling it something else, why not. Their legal rights would match that of a typical married couple, but the label might be something different. Everyone wins.
I hope you didnt take offense about my example man. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of things grossing you out. Dude, I've hung out with you long enough to know how "gross" YOU really are!!! Cough, Cough, SPONGE BOB!!
lmao.gif Majik - YES!! I am glad I got my point across for you man! Sometimes I think I am being direct and straight forward when I am not. I am glad you called me out to really pinpoint my argument. It actually made me feel better about it. LOL! You by no means should give in to my arguments. You have some great points about some of the items that are on that list. I didnt come up with that list, no way am I that neurotic about getting my point across. The gay and lesbian activists did. I imagine they are at least somewhat educated about the subject they are fighting for, so I would assume that everything on the list has some significance, at least in their eyes, in the laws and rights that married straight couples have and gay partnership lack. You picked out the big ones, and the big ones, I believe, are the ones mandated mostly by the federal government. Yes, gays and lesbians are getting more and more states to lean in favor for their cause, but some of the rights they are seeking will not be met unless the federal government acknowledges their unions and grants rights to them.
But, I am glad I have FINALLY made myself clear to you. fing02.gif fing02.gif
09-02-2008, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (demon_wolf @ Sep 2 2008, 12:49 AM)
this kinda mess is why most of the time i stay out political debates
You mean becoming knowledgeable enough about a topic to be able to defend it against rebuttal? Something that makes you THINK and get involved, rather than say, "That person sounds like (s)he knows what (s)he's talking about" and just going with the flow?
09-02-2008, 11:17 PM
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actually no majik, i am very knowledgeable about BOTH parties, but pidlley pissing matches like this shit is why i stay out of it. as to why i should have to defend and or prove my decision to ANYBODY is not really something i enjoy. partially because not everyone has every fact an alot of people argue while not knowing fully what they are arguing about an only go off the facts they see off television because they are to lazy to do any of their own research an learn about the topics at hand an the politicians stance on those issues or let fear of change, i.e. last election keep them from believing their research even tho its been proven by more than a few other sources.
No Majik i stay out of political arguments because i am knowledgeable an i deal with stupid people everyday at work an dont feel like arguing or proving myself to anyne in my free time, no matter who or how knowledgeable they are.
end rant/
No Majik i stay out of political arguments because i am knowledgeable an i deal with stupid people everyday at work an dont feel like arguing or proving myself to anyne in my free time, no matter who or how knowledgeable they are.
end rant/