Time for some debate - Was this murder or self defense?
08-24-2011 | 02:02 PM
#1
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Time for some debate - Was this murder or self defense?
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/B...128205923.html
- Hard working man is held at knife point and robbed, shoots suspects as he flees.
WV has the Castle Doctrine FYI.
LOGAN, W.Va. (WSAZ) – One man is dead, and another is in jail after a shooting in a busy parking lot Monday afternoon.
"There's family and kids...I don't understand it. It's kind of scary," says shopper Anthony Gaither.
Logan Police say Jesus Canul, 26, of Logan, was approached by David Abbott, 37, in the parking lot of the Walmart at Fountain Place.
Police say Abbott had a sharp object and attempted to rob Canul in front of the store.
But Canul turned the tables, when he shot and killed the man who was said to be robbing him.
Logan police say Abbott had been watching Canul as he put his money away.
Once outside, witnesses say they saw Abbott move in on the man.
Bert Davis, who watched the whole thing happen, says Abbott "wrapped him around his neck and said, 'Give me all your money, or give me your wallet or I'm going to cut your throat.' "
Davis says Abbott repeated that two or three times.
He finally got the wallet and turned to go. That's when his victim pulled a gun out.
Davis says Canul "cocked (the gun) back and pointed at that guy's head. And, he got three steps, and that boy shot him."
Police say Canul had a legal permit to carry a gun and confirmed the story about him being robbed.
After the shooting, witnesses say the two men went into the store.
Canul put his gun down on the floor and waited for police while witnesses tried to help Abbott.
"We rolled him over on his side, so he could breathe....just stayed with him until the ambulance got here," Davis says.
Police say Abbott was dead by the time he got to the hospital.
They've charged Canul with murder.
Police say, as far as they can tell, these men didn't know each other.
Without offering many details, police said just because Canul was robbed, does not mean this is a case of self defense.
"That's kind of the prosecutor's call. And, there are some facets of it that we don't believe self defense really carries in this," Logan Police Chief E.K. Harper said.
Canul could be in court as soon as Tuesday morning for a bond hearing. He's being held at the South Central Regional Jail.
Even while all of this was going on, no one else was injured and Walmart stayed open.
"There's family and kids...I don't understand it. It's kind of scary," says shopper Anthony Gaither.
Logan Police say Jesus Canul, 26, of Logan, was approached by David Abbott, 37, in the parking lot of the Walmart at Fountain Place.
Police say Abbott had a sharp object and attempted to rob Canul in front of the store.
But Canul turned the tables, when he shot and killed the man who was said to be robbing him.
Logan police say Abbott had been watching Canul as he put his money away.
Once outside, witnesses say they saw Abbott move in on the man.
Bert Davis, who watched the whole thing happen, says Abbott "wrapped him around his neck and said, 'Give me all your money, or give me your wallet or I'm going to cut your throat.' "
Davis says Abbott repeated that two or three times.
He finally got the wallet and turned to go. That's when his victim pulled a gun out.
Davis says Canul "cocked (the gun) back and pointed at that guy's head. And, he got three steps, and that boy shot him."
Police say Canul had a legal permit to carry a gun and confirmed the story about him being robbed.
After the shooting, witnesses say the two men went into the store.
Canul put his gun down on the floor and waited for police while witnesses tried to help Abbott.
"We rolled him over on his side, so he could breathe....just stayed with him until the ambulance got here," Davis says.
Police say Abbott was dead by the time he got to the hospital.
They've charged Canul with murder.
Police say, as far as they can tell, these men didn't know each other.
Without offering many details, police said just because Canul was robbed, does not mean this is a case of self defense.
"That's kind of the prosecutor's call. And, there are some facets of it that we don't believe self defense really carries in this," Logan Police Chief E.K. Harper said.
Canul could be in court as soon as Tuesday morning for a bond hearing. He's being held at the South Central Regional Jail.
Even while all of this was going on, no one else was injured and Walmart stayed open.
- Hard working man is held at knife point and robbed, shoots suspects as he flees. WV has the Castle Doctrine FYI.
08-24-2011 | 02:11 PM
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hard to say, based on the NO DUTY TO RETREAT law, he might get off with self defense.
but the jury will still take into account that he shot the guy in the back.
and that the criminal did not cause any injury, only the threat of injury.
also does it say how many times he fired the weapon ? did he unload the clip, in a pray and spray, or was it precise and meditated?
but the jury will still take into account that he shot the guy in the back.
and that the criminal did not cause any injury, only the threat of injury.
also does it say how many times he fired the weapon ? did he unload the clip, in a pray and spray, or was it precise and meditated?
08-24-2011 | 02:37 PM
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Um, that's the purpose of concealed weapons. So if you get threatened you can pull it out. And if you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it. Which is what this guy did.
Of course, that was in WV, so in general, the criminal is let go, and the innocent one is the criminal. So yeah, he's going to get a life sentence for murder. No question.
Of course, that was in WV, so in general, the criminal is let go, and the innocent one is the criminal. So yeah, he's going to get a life sentence for murder. No question.
08-24-2011 | 10:54 PM
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If I'm on the grand jury this guy walks. This was a totally reasonable homicide.
For those who care, I wrote out the psychological justification for this type of killing a while back: "It's more than what it is"
For those who care, I wrote out the psychological justification for this type of killing a while back: "It's more than what it is"
08-24-2011 | 11:49 PM
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Here, I am also authorized to use deadly force to stop someone while committing a felony.
I also think this qualifies under self defense in general, although I am not familiar with the laws there.
I concur that if I was a juror, he walks.
I also think this qualifies under self defense in general, although I am not familiar with the laws there.
I concur that if I was a juror, he walks.
08-25-2011 | 02:53 AM
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If he had pulled the gun out and the other guy charged at him with the knife I could see how a self-defense plea would work. In any case that's one less scumbag the world has to worry about...
08-25-2011 | 04:42 AM
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i definitely agree with the sentiments of the shooter/others in this thread. but to be honest, i don't think you could call that self defence by the letter of the law. the robber was ~fleeing~, that's no reason to shoot him. it would be like shooting a shoplifter, kinda. i guess what doesn't sit right with me is that the right to take someone's life can be extended to burglary offences. a jury doesn't decide whether or not you shoot and kill someone, you do. at that moment. anyone can, and rightly will, feel outraged at being emasculated by being robbed. if it is okay to draw the line of force at 'being robbed; but the robber did threaten me', what other situations can justify violence because the victim was threatened?
don't get me wrong though. i support responsible use of firearms, and concealed carry. i just don't want to see a proliferation of cases like this, allowing any old cletus with a good lawyer to walk when they panic/rage shoot a petty theif.
btw, if i was a juror, he would walk.
*EDIT* Just fixed some grammar and missing words.
don't get me wrong though. i support responsible use of firearms, and concealed carry. i just don't want to see a proliferation of cases like this, allowing any old cletus with a good lawyer to walk when they panic/rage shoot a petty theif.
btw, if i was a juror, he would walk.
*EDIT* Just fixed some grammar and missing words.
08-25-2011 | 10:36 PM
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^^ yup, this guys has to deal with taking a life, for the rest of his days, it will be up to him whether he can justify it to himself. thoughts like that could drive you crazy....
maybe the guy needed money to pay a bill or buy food for his child, maybe he was robbing for the "right" reasons.
could you live with yourself if you found out he was in fact robbing people to pay for food for his family, and you killed him ? no seriously, could you ?
maybe the guy needed money to pay a bill or buy food for his child, maybe he was robbing for the "right" reasons.
could you live with yourself if you found out he was in fact robbing people to pay for food for his family, and you killed him ? no seriously, could you ?