Sinjinstar

I really don't care for people who don't think that we should be here or there. Just remember that they are out there fighting wars so that we can have our freedom. For those of you who don't support our military. I say what are you doing to keep your freedom that we have so hard maintain. For I was one of the few and proud. tongue.gif tongue.gif

javageek

Scourge, one thing you need to think about is most of us military personnel do not want you doing this garbage for us. Do you know how much of a downer it is to see people protesting what we do on TV? I suppose you would have been one to spit on Vietnam Vets when they came home had you been there. We do what we do, so you don't have to give up the luxuries of freedom that you so desire. Please don't compare your protesting to us fighting, I call it one thing... Cowardice.
Have a nice day!

Solo-Baric

Sinjinstar, i am with you. i'm sure my parents and wife feel the same way.

JavaGeek, Thanks for help with my point!

scourge

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I'm well aware of what it is. I am just surprised that I value your job more than you do.

[/b]

Man, you really don't have a clue to how the world works. You really are a slave in mind and body. I am not a slave to anything, much less my boss. I work where I do becuase I CHOOSE to work where I do. I work during my scheduled hours and I go home and I have my own life. I don't bow to the wishes of my employer by never questioning. You don't want to think, fine. Just don't be jealous toward those of us who choose to.

[/b]

I'm sorry you cannot tell the difference between defending freedom and being the tool for political motivations of opportunistic politicians. I could post more to refute your ridiculous assertion above, but I don't think you would understand.

[/b]

You didn't learn a damn thing from Patton did you? rolleyes.gif NOBODY ever won a war dying for his country. You make the OTHER poor dumb bastard die for his country!

You obviously want to die for some reason. But, thats not effective military strategy there man.

[/b]

And it was a politically motivated operation that was not fully thought out nor were enough forces used to make the capture nor did Washington allow appropriate armor and air cover. Again, political decisions were made when American troops were put into danger. 2 weeks later the US pulled out.

Now please, tell everyone here just why those 19 brave men died and justify it to their families when NOTHING was accomplished.

[/b]

Had they started at night, the targes would not have been there. Duh.

[/b]

No, you don't understand a thing. I accept the need for the military and I know its function - kill and destroy. To do this, other people want to kill you back. So, I insist that the US military ONLY put Americans in danger when it is absolutely necessary.

Somolia was not necessary
Panama was not necessary
Haiti was not necessary

to name but three. We are NOT the world's policeman nor can we be. There is NO reason for you to be shot at unless the US is in danger. I do not support the idea of the President - of ANY party, and especially those who have never served or seen death in combat - sending young Americans to die to further their own political purposes.

The US military is like CCP and a gun. You know you have it and it is certainly lethal. You should respect it more and treat it more carefully than a transient thing.

[/b]

In a way, yes. Once you stop questioning you start enslaving yourself to whatever propaganda comes your way. You may agree with the president, but if you don't know why and do so just because you just do and he is the president after all...you know, then you do so with your brain off.

[/b]

I don't buy you bullsh!t and see it for the lie it is. Going into Iraq is NOT fighting for freedom. hell, Reagan supplied Hussein with WMD and was in full support of him killing thousands of Iranians. The US openly trades with China. is China free? The US supported and funded the Shah of Iran and he used oppressive thugs to kidnap and assasinate those protesting for more freedoms.

I could easily go on. One thing I do understand is how you have no clue about what is going on in the world today. Its obviously too complicated for you at this point.

[/b]

If he were not such an incompetent and corrupt POS, then maybe I would not be forced to dislike him. And before you come back, Gore is a POS too. I was a McCain supporter from start to finish. Hell, I want to see Powell balk the administration and run against Bush. Powell is certainly more qualified!

[/QB]

What you fail to comprehend is that I am doing the EXACT same thing to try and convince yourself that you are doing. All enemies to freedom are not some boogeymen on the field of battle in some foreign country. You need to learn that.

[/b]

And I do not for one second begrudge the work you did. You did what you were told to do. However, you may train to follow orders without thinking but I work hard (in the limited capacity I have) to make sure your orders are necessary and valuable to US security.

Had you read any of my replies you would know you would not have to encourage me to do what I always do. I'm for you guys. Hell, you should thank me for caring so much about your life even though we have never met! I don't hate our troops, but I question our leaders who are so quick to get you killed....and for what? The answer better be a damn good one. So far, from this president.....it ain't!

scourge

My god you people are brainwashed! I have no doubt you are enlistedmen.

[/b]

You may be conditioned to follow orders without thought, but not everyone is. Life is not so simple as you people here are trying to make it out.....well, maybe it is for you, but for the big people at the big table where all the real important decisions get made, real life is not as simple as yours.

And you need to realize the difference between the left wing whackos out there who will protest ANYTHING just to get on tv and those people who are cautious and reflective about what we are doing.

[/b]

This goes to show how stupid you really are. I knew someone would post this drivel...and it happens to be you. You really are clueless. My stance is really easy to follow but for you, I will repeat it and slow this time, ok -

Soldiers are sent to do a job. They do not get to pick and choose what, where, when, who an operation or a war takes place. Spitting on soldiers returning home during the Vietnam war is absolutely despicable. Its shameful that these people were so callous and stupid to not realize what had happened. These boys were drafted and sent to a useless war to die for nothing while politicans lived comfortable lives and enjoyed their power. it was not the soldier's fault everything went to sh!t, it was the politicans. And, it was THERE that the angre should have been vented, NOT the soldiers.

now, was that clear enough or do we need to go over this simple problem one more time?

[/b]

rolleyes.gif

Been watching too many recruiting posters now heven't we? No, you do what you do because you are TOLD what to do. Hopefully, what you do does in fact strenghten our security and our freedom. But, I will ask you too - just how was I made more free and have more luxuries by those brave 19 men dying in Mogadishu? Go ahead, rationalize that.

I would be offended had you a clue about how life works, but since you don't, its just the emotional ramblings of one too scared or just unable to think for himself.

You think being a Rambo makes you a real American, but hte thing is you don't know anything about what makes a REAL American.

[/b]

You want to grovel at the @SS of the Religion of the State, then that is your perogative. No one wants to stop you from being a mindless slave. Those of us who actually understand the Constitution and what it represents go on with our lives quite nicely without you people.

[/b]

How did the men who died in Panama make me more free?

How did the men who died in Iraq Part I make me more free?

How did men dying in Kosovo make me more free?

How did men dying in Haiti make me more free?

How did men dying in Somalia make me more free?

How did men dying in Vietnam make more more free?

How did men dying in Korea make me more free?

You see, you know how to tow the party line but you can't back it up with anything concrete. Everyone wants to mention WWII, so I'll do it too. Now, that conflict was definately to protect America's freedom and our existence! Americans should ONLY die when its in the defense of OUR country, not to further the political ambitions of a president.

[/b]

Now, who the hell here is not supporting our military?!?! You're just making things up.

[/b]

We are doing what you are too scared to do. We are exercising our freedoms to make sure we keep them.....and you keep yours. Its really this simple and you would see that if you dropped your bullsh!t.

javageek

So now you are calling us stupid and coming to the conclusion that we are enlisted. If I was doing what I do only because I am told to do it I don't think I would have stayed in for as long as I have (11 years BTW). Somalia started as a humanitarian relief effort. It wasn't only the one failed operation everyone now knows as Blackhawk Down. I was over there for four months in 1992 flying food into Mogadishu, Belletwain, etc. THEN the warlords came in and started stealing the food that we were delivering. That is why the Marines were brought in. I think the biggest failure of Somalia came when some stupid American laws allowed the reporters to be on the beach with cameras when the Marines stormed it. I am sorry that you disagree with what we do, but you have your job, we have ours. We enjoy it...

Oh Yeah...

It's not all about you (US citizen) directly benefiting from our operations. When you are actually there and see some of the citizens of the country and how happy they are that you stepped in and are feeding or protecting them, there is NO better feeling in the world. You must remember we are part of the UN. Most of our operations are humanitarian efforts. They just turn bloody when a rival faction/gang decides they want there cut.

[ October 23, 2002, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: javageek ]

ammoman

Wow, lotta reading. Loved the "you must all be enlisted" comment...mild ignorance. Love to read as the military chimes in; revel in the fact that we have such a society that allows and encourages its citizens to express themselves.

So, what I get from all the posts is that scourge would have us employ our military only when "necessary." Like when we get attacked on our own soil...or when our troops who are protecting UN relief shipments begin to take small arms and rocket fire...lots more scenarios that [I guess] only an officer could think up.

Don't discredit the military members as a whole for not understanding the political pulse of the nation, or for not realising our country's involvement in past power struggles; we understand- believe it or not we are taught these things while in service. We know that the current problems in the middle east can be traced all the way back to Africa by way of Panama. We understand the connection between Soviets and Afghanistan, Stinger missiles and Bin Laden, and Noriega and arms for Iran, and how Israel, Iraq, Palestine, Yemen, Djibouti, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Kuwait, Jordan, Bosnia, India, Pakistan, China, Korea, and even Vietnam, are all part of a never-ending political circle.

Don't feel sorry for us because we follow orders; don't pity us because you think our leaders' motives are unwarranted; we chose this life. Whether we are serving in the military or concerned citizens, none of us have all the information or all the answers to every world problem. How we employ our young warriors (from patternmakers to grunts) depends on what is happening now, and what may happen in the near future. You may not agree with [what you think are] the reasons why the military is being sent to do a particular job, but do you have all the facts? Are you sitting in a decision room at the Pentagon? No- and neither are we, but we go, nonetheless. Are we the world's policemen? No, although it sometimes seems that way; I wouldn't want to imagine a world without some type of restraint enacted by a police state, though, which is why I referenced Paul Johnson and Leviathan.

Either way, like I mentioned, I'm glad that we live in the society that we do- one that promotes this type of discussion and provokes such emotion. And I know that overall, wholeheartedly, we all support our men and women who are sent into harm's way and pray for their safe return.

...and I know that whoever our MEUs are sent to encounter are in for a serious ass kicking!

Hearts and minds, thoughts and prayers for our deployed Marines and Sailors. If you're not helping, you're hurting... grab a weapon and stand a post!

[ October 23, 2002, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: ammoman ]

Solo-Baric

well i started to post that your a liberal that dosen't know how that world work. But i'm not. Because everyone who reads your post knows that you are!!!! No tell me how many american lives were lost on the USS Cole? Why didn't we act on that? Oh yeah probally because of liberals like you. That are afraid to use force. You can't talk you way out of everything. Thanks for ruining the post that was ment to give us support oh what we do, not tell us we are robots and don't know how to question. You need to leave your little office cubical and see what the real world is like. By the way do you believe everything the media says? I hope not. Because they don't know a whole hell of a lot. Do you have a bumper sticker on your car that says "I'm a know it all Liberal"? because you sure are acting like it. Out of all the questions you have asked you still don't know the whole truth. Most of us do!!! We have been there, we know why they died and they never well be forgot. BTW Please tell all the military members ever where how to be a real american? what pay taxes and die? or be born into freedom? sit back and complain about everything? what? I want you tell tell me what make a real american? i bet you can't. I bet you don't even know what life is like! Have you ever been to a foreign country and saw how they live? sure you might to to a nice place like paris or london. But have you ever been deep into one and looked arround to see what it's like? I have. If they were in your shoes they wouldn't complain on bit. Hell they think that are good with what they have. Most think a stick house is great. How many men have you made die for their country? i'm listening. oh yeah i know zero. because your afraid of bootcamp someone might scream at me. Guess what your a liberal you can't handle the real world. so you just stay at your computer and let us do our job, while your mouth stays shut. How many vets do you know? How many of them know you feel like this todward them? Or are you afraid to tell them?

[ October 23, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Solo-Baric ]

scourge

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Hey, if you cannot tell who your friends are and instead go off on some ignorant bullsh!t tantrum, then people's actions speak for themselves. Its not my fault some people cannot read:

So, anyone who thinks that I am still anti-military will obviously NEVER get a clue about reality. They will instead live in some simplistic world where they can barely understand the most simple of ideas.

BTW: My dad is a Vietnam Vet, so thats why people ARE STUPID when they think I would disrespect Vietnam Vets. I have an uncle that is a Vietnam Vet. My mother's father was a decorated WWII and Korean Vet. So was his brother. My dad's dad served during WWI. I come from a military family. I grew up in a military town. Fort Campbell and the 101st Airborne is not too fa from where I grew up too. Hell, whoever doesn't know Okinawa is a military installation is uttely clueless and beyond help.

I know people who didn't come home. So, all the Rambo bullsh!t is from people who have never tasted to horrors of actual combat, but rather some GI Joe wannabes who think they are brave. I value our military and only want it used in ways that further protect America, not further the political ambitions of a president.

[/b]

I think it was before that, though the media should NEVER NEVER NEVER be allowed into a hotzone, PERIOD. The safety of our troops and the success of the mission outweigh the needs of the press. Frankly, I despise the never shoot back unless being fired upon orders that are routinely given. A dead soldier cannot shoot back. US soilders should be allowed to take control of ANY situation that may become hostile before their lives are put in jeopardy.

[/b]

If you had bothered to read and understand, you would see I don't disagree with what you do but rather think Americans were needlessly killed in operations that were not vital to America's survival. Oh, and if you LOVE your job, you obviously have never been in combat. Not one man whom I have ever spoken with who has lived through combat has ever said they loved their job....but rather it was something they had to do because it was their job.

[/b]

I don't pity you or feel sorry for you people. I appreciate and respect the choice you people made and the work you are called upon to do. I am not allowed into the military because I am under a doctor's care for high-blood pressure. Recruiter wouldn't even consider letting me serve on a refueling tanker and just how dangerous a job is that?

I'm not attacking the military nor was I ever. I always support the military even when I don't support the president and I resent the implication that just because I don't wave my little flag (made in CHINA btw) and march along with the masses thatI am less of an American than one who mindlessly obeys.

Yes, I think that Somalia was a wasted use of our military but the leaders never should have handicapped you guys and made you half-ass fight back. By going in without full force and appropriate cover is needlessly endangering our men. Politial considerations should ALWAYS take a back seat to the facts on the ground.

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As do I. The USA is the best country on the planet to live in (unless you happen to love Japanese sports cars, then the USA sucks as the best ones aren't there...but thats a different topic) and I am glad that by accident of birth that I was born in America. I love my country eventhough I may not always be proud of what it does.

Thankfully, we are still free enough to b!tch and moan about things without getting shot. In the end, you serve America your way and I serve America my way. Hopefully, at the end of the day it will be a better place.

Now, my position is clear (not that I ever thought it could ever be construed as anything otherwise) and I see that other posts are attacking me, but I will not respond to each one as the emotionalism is running rampant in some people. Perhaps, after reading this post some can actually understand.

Solo-Baric

Well from reading all your posts in order you seem to have a double standard happeing. But that's fine I will not argue with you any further. Your beliefs are yours, and mine are mine. BTW i've never experieced hand to hand combat, but i've been shot at, while un armed. The army is pretty stupid. But don't tell me all this rambo sh1t. Although the crews we were with are one of the most deadly and accurate crews out there.

If you ain't Spectre you ain't Sh1t. we are the fabulous 4 engine fighter! ask a vet who has fought with one over head! they have great respect for us. So does our community.