REDZMAN

Okay, I've been having some minor starting problems for the past few months, almost ALWAYS in the morning though. I'm posting this from my Phone in class, so please bear with me and READ THE FULL POST.

1. Started having trouble starting the car in the mornings, attributed it to the cold spring weather, car would eventually start.

2. Yesterday, I get a call from my wife (Lizgiggles), that the car won't start. She tries a few dozen times and it still won't start so I head over to help. I look over the entire engine, and other than being dirty from the desert, it's all correct.

a. Car will turn over rapidly.
b. Timing belt Gear is moving, so engine IS turning.
c. Not a lack of power, as it hasn't slowed down and still won't start after jumping with my Sorento.

3. We call Geico and they come and have the car towed back to my house. I figure it's the fuel filter, as the car just hit 80K miles and is on it's original filter. I prepare for the PITA fuel filter swap (had one on hand), and jack up the car. Swapping the fuel filter took about 45 minutes, and was pretty friggin easy (some of you guys are pussies, LOL, DIY coming this weekend). Car still won't start. NOTE: Since I couldn't relieve the pressure from the fuel system, I expected a HUGE mess when I took off the fuel filter fittings, there was almost NO fuel spillage at all.

4. We put everything back together, I test for spark with the #1 plug wire pointing at the block, then at part of the frame, I see no spark when attempting to turn it over.


5. We pull up the back seat,, wife tries to turn over the engine while I check the fuel pump to see if it's working. I don't hear anything, don't feel anything that I can definately tell, car doesn't start.

(NOTE - I've reset the ECU 3 times by now)

6. We put the engine back together, drop the car off the jackstands, and try one more time. Wife turns the engine, and I check the fuel pump. I think I feel a whirring on the pump, the car backfires, then starts up. We take it for a test drive, runs fine. Turn it off, starts right back up.

No more problems right?

Wrong.

I get up this morning to go to school, car won't start on the first try. Second try, nothing, Third try, starts up. Go to school, .8 Miles away. Come out 2 hours later, car won't start at all. EXACT same symptoms.

1. Pop the hood, check everything, everythingis still fine. No hissing, no vaccum leaks, no missing sensors or connections. I attempt to pull off the second spark plug wire from the left (NOTE: Brand new PRD wires and spark plugs as of about 2 months ago) by turning it first to break the seal, then pulling up, and the wire pulls out of the boot. Now I'm pissed.

2. Call the wife in from work, she picks me up and we get a spare set of plug wires, brand new, and go to swap them in place. A total of 2 of my brandnew PRD wires come apart while removing them. We put the new wires in place, car still won't start. Feel the fuel pump,, with the wife verifying, and I don't feel or hear anything coming from it.

Leave the car at school, drive the wife to work, and go to my other classes, going to tow the car home tonight.

What I'm thinking is that the fuel pump is toast. ABQElantra gave me the idea because of how old and clogged my fuel filter was, that it wore the pump out early. I'm going to swap for the one in my RD1 tonight, and double check the plugs.

Any other suggestions? things I should check, HOW TO CHECK THEM?

Thanks guys, jus twanted to get a list going for when I get home later.

tanc

When looking for a spark, take out the spark plug press it in the boot and ground out the threads of the spark plug onto your block. Than crank.

REDZMAN

Thanks Tanc, I thought I wasn't doing it right, but it's what my "Domestic" Dad was telling me to do via phone. I'll try that for sure when I get home. Should I do it for one wire on each coilpack? Also, if I get no spark, tis the coil pack right?

Denisst99

acts like a defect crank sensor

DTN

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (REDZMAN @ Jun 6 2007, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Any other suggestions? things I should check, HOW TO CHECK THEM?

Thanks guys, jus twanted to get a list going for when I get home later.

Thanks Mad, I thought I wasn't doing it right, but it's what my "Domestic" Dad was telling me to do via phone. I'll try that for sure when I get home. Should I do it for one wire on each coilpack? Also, if I get no spark, tis the coil pack right?</div>

Ok, you're NOT throwing any codes? My first thing would be to break out Jay-M's code reader and read any stored codes in the computer. The computer might not put the CEL up, but it will have codes stored from previous hard failures. Can you manage to get it to autozone or anything?

I'd check to make sure the IAC was properly hooked up. Check your idle settings. It's possible that your idle is adjusted below the threshold of the IAC's correction and it's maxed trying to maintain idle.

It's really hard to diagnose problems without OBD-II. My first troubleshooting technique is always bust out the OBD-II and read the codes. My next is to read sensor data.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (REDZMAN @ Jun 6 2007, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks Mad, I thought I wasn't doing it right, but it's what my "Domestic" Dad was telling me to do via phone. I'll try that for sure when I get home. Should I do it for one wire on each coilpack? Also, if I get no spark, tis the coil pack right?</div>

That was tanc. There is too much shielding on the spark plug end.

REDZMAN

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denisst99 @ Jun 6 2007, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>acts like a defect crank sensor</div>

Hmm... You know, I was having a pretty bad oil leak from my Crank Sensor for the past several months, so I DID just replace the oring on it this weekend. But the trouble starting issue has been going on for several months too. What would you recommend? I do have a RD1 to swap parts from, swap the sensor?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DrivingTibNaked @ Jun 6 2007, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, you're NOT throwing any codes? My first thing would be to break out Jay-M's code reader and read any stored codes in the computer. The computer might not put the CEL up, but it will have codes stored from previous hard failures. Can you manage to get it to autozone or anything?</div>

No codes other than my o2 sensor one for my secondary o2 sensor, and that's not going to effect the starting, especially since it's been there for a month and gets reset with the ECU. I have 2 OBD checkers, one for codes, and one for logging (Carchip FX). No need for Vatozone.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I'd check to make sure the IAC was properly hooked up. Check your idle settings. It's possible that your idle is adjusted below the threshold of the IAC's correction and it's maxed trying to maintain idle.</div>

It is, I posted that in my first post. Idle settings? They haven't changed, it's all where it should be. I wasn't, and haven't, had any idle problems since right after the Airram went in last year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It's really hard to diagnose problems without OBD-II. My first troubleshooting technique is always bust out the OBD-II and read the codes. My next is to read sensor data.
That was tanc. There is too much shielding on the spark plug end.</div>

Meh, it's just old school diagnosing them without OBDII, but OBDII isn't helping here. I will try the Crank Sensor tomorrow morning, then I'm going to do the Fuel Pump test I just learned about in the Shop Manual. I'm going to scan that entire book for the Premier Members section, along with my Haynes Manual.


More suggestions?

Anyone else with PRD wire problems?

DTN

How does the car run when it works? IF sucky, check the 3rd coloumn.. incomplete combustion

If ok, then check the 2nd coloumn.

REDZMAN

As I said, the engine turns, it does turn over, the starter works fine and I can visually watch the timing belt turn, so it's the 3rd column. I've got that same chart in my shop manual, but right now I'm skipping most of the BS on that list as the fuel pump isn't making any frigging noise at all.

The car has been running fantastic, it's just starting it that's been an issue.

Keep em comin guys.

DTN

Yeah, but the starter turning over means there's a whirring. the engine turning over means it catches, then stops then catches then stops.. Like it want's to turn over but it's not. At least that's my understanding.. Does it "want to start"?

keep us updated mang!

REDZMAN

...

DTN, please stop posting, you are making no sense at all.

I said, it's TURNING OVER, but it is NOT STARTING. That means the ENGINE IS GOING THROUGH THE CYCLES BUT NOT BEGINING INTERNAL COMBUSTION. The STARTER NOISE has NOTHING TO DO AT ALL WITH THE FUEL PUMP NOISE. One is in the engine bay, the other is under the BACK SEAT.

Jesus friggin Christ.

So, in conclusion, my first post says it all. Car will not start. It rapidly turns over (starter turning the engine, everything moving, so the starter works, belts are fine), it doesn't START and run though (No internal combustion present, engine stops turning as soon as the key is let off of because of lack of explosions in the cylinder). The FUEL PUMP is supposed to be audiable if you have the seat up and the cover off of the pump (I hear nothing and can't feel it whirring underneath, NOTE: Do NOT confuse this whirring with the VERY LOUD STARTER NOISE that comes from the opposite end of the car).

Does that explain it to everyone?