K&N Filters & Filter Oil Do Not Kill Mass Air Flow Sensors (MAFs)
08-18-2010 | 12:59 PM
#1
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K&N Filters & Filter Oil Do Not Kill Mass Air Flow Sensors (MAFs)
QUOTE (daytonmvp23 @ Aug 12 2010, 01:08 PM)
Are you running an aftermarket filter like k&N they have been suspected of runing MAF as the oil gets in the sensor and ruins the sensor.
QUOTE (Stocker @ Aug 12 2010, 01:37 PM)
K&N filters do not kill MAF sensors. This is not even open for discussion. The research has been done, and it is a bogus theory. The common chemical deposition problem that usually kills MAFS is the silicone from the electronics migrating out onto the heated elements.
QUOTE (daytonmvp23 @ Aug 13 2010, 08:35 AM)
A properly serviced K&N filter does not kill MAF sensors but one that is not properly serviced does. I was sceptical at first as well until someone did a comparision test for an engineering project. Basically if you follow K&N instructions for servicing you should be fine what happens though is people are putting on too much oil to the point that the filter element is oversaturated with oil and when it comes in contact with MAF and is continously heated and cooled essentially cakes on the MAF sensor area ruining the readings. This is for hot wire MAF types he did not test the other styles. So yes if you properly service your K&N you are fine if you think more is better then you are asking for trouble.
QUOTE (Stocker @ Aug 13 2010, 01:33 PM)
daytonmvp23 I regret to inform you that you are just wrong.
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairfindings.htm
cliffs:
1. K&N’s laboratory technicians tested an over-oiled K&N air filter at a rate of 1,000 Cubic Feet per Minute . . . and confirmed that oil does not migrate from a K&N air filter – even at CFMs far in excess of those seen in production engines.
2. We coated both hot wire and film style sensors with K&N filter oil . . . were able to take this same MAF sensor, clean it, and found that the readings were identical to the ones taken prior to the extreme testing.
5. Many of the sensors tested were self-contaminated by the silicone potting compound used in the manufacture of the MAF. . . .
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairfindings.htm
cliffs:
1. K&N’s laboratory technicians tested an over-oiled K&N air filter at a rate of 1,000 Cubic Feet per Minute . . . and confirmed that oil does not migrate from a K&N air filter – even at CFMs far in excess of those seen in production engines.
2. We coated both hot wire and film style sensors with K&N filter oil . . . were able to take this same MAF sensor, clean it, and found that the readings were identical to the ones taken prior to the extreme testing.
5. Many of the sensors tested were self-contaminated by the silicone potting compound used in the manufacture of the MAF. . . .
QUOTE (daytonmvp23 @ Aug 18 2010, 08:29 AM)
Did you read the whole report? It does state that trace amounts of oil where found on some of the failed sensors. And as any good corporation trying to protect their bottom line would state that the independent lab could not verify the oil contamination and then flip it to say we suspect it is caused by fuel or oil from engine contamination.
Second their theory on silicone contamination would require the silicone being melted off the circuit board, which would be very high temperature even for a circuit board unless the MAF was assembled using inferior silicone for electronic usage. However if you want to have a MR Wizard experiment take electrical grade silicone, k&N oil. and tin foil.
make to squares of silicone on the tin foil and allow to fully cure.
Then to test extreme failure spray one square heavily with K&N oil and leave the other one touched.
Take it to a grill or other heat source comparable to under hood temps and where you can exceed normal temps.
Heat that puppy up and see if you can see either silicone start to run or burn off.
Increase temperature until one or both starts to fail.
The one that has been contaminate with the oil should start to fail first as oil tends to break down silicone compounds. Of course K&N a company who makes most of it's profit on oiled filters would exclude this rational unless it was undeniable. Think of Toyota with the cars accelerating beyond control deny until you have to confess is a corporate slogan.
Second their theory on silicone contamination would require the silicone being melted off the circuit board, which would be very high temperature even for a circuit board unless the MAF was assembled using inferior silicone for electronic usage. However if you want to have a MR Wizard experiment take electrical grade silicone, k&N oil. and tin foil.
make to squares of silicone on the tin foil and allow to fully cure.
Then to test extreme failure spray one square heavily with K&N oil and leave the other one touched.
Take it to a grill or other heat source comparable to under hood temps and where you can exceed normal temps.
Heat that puppy up and see if you can see either silicone start to run or burn off.
Increase temperature until one or both starts to fail.
The one that has been contaminate with the oil should start to fail first as oil tends to break down silicone compounds. Of course K&N a company who makes most of it's profit on oiled filters would exclude this rational unless it was undeniable. Think of Toyota with the cars accelerating beyond control deny until you have to confess is a corporate slogan.
By the way, the U.S. government investigated the Toyota uncontrolled acceleration problem and found that every case was operator error, not a problem with the car. You make my case for me!
Yes, I did read the whole report, as well as reading all of the linked pages. That is how I was able to post a cliff's version for those who will not.
If you don't think silicone oil migrates out of silicone rubber, then a) why have car manufacturers issued recalls for silicone potting compound damaging MAFS and cool.gif why doesn't my TV remote control work?
http://www.michaelshell.org/gadgetsandfixe...iliconeoil.html
********
This science is settled as far as I am concerned, and I am done with the argument unless something different comes up. I've reported the off-topic conversation in thearkatek's thread and hope it will be de-cluttered. Any further arguments on this topic should take place on this thread instead of that one.
08-18-2010 | 01:37 PM
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From: tacos
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Ever spray your tires with tire shine then drive down a dirt road? Tires are now caked with dirt
The oil doesn't kill the maf....but the dirt it attracts will
Spray your motherboard with the oil and throw some dirt on It
I'm sure it will be just fine
The oil doesn't kill the maf....but the dirt it attracts will
Spray your motherboard with the oil and throw some dirt on It
I'm sure it will be just fine
08-19-2010 | 06:45 AM
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The filters themselves when properly cleaned and lubricated by the home user AND K&N don't kill MAF sensors but the moment the filter is over sprayed at home or at the factory it can. I've seen brand new filters taken out of the plastic dripping with oil from the INSIDE of the filter where it shouldn't be. ROFL
08-19-2010 | 11:47 AM
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The difference is that silicone in epoxy form is also made up of different chemical compounds. Most MAF recalls dealt with those companies that where using inferior epoxies. While I know I made it sound like it was just the oils fault it is more complicated then that as post above. If you looked at their data spread sheet you will see that failed MAFS that had silicone or oil coating where also dirty....silicone (EPOXY) and oil both are sticky substances adding a new oil to silicone epoxy and varying degrees of heat changes the chemical makeup of the epoxy.
Why is it so hard to believe that corporations #1 concern is a healthy bottom line and big test and lawyers and etc will always find ways to push evidence to point in their favor so long as they are not caught red handed. PPG and BP come to mind if you want some more examples. The bottom line is that K&N is like the majority of any other company. They will sweet talk you and show you all the good information their company provides but gloss over the problems whenever they can.
I am not saying we should distrust everything ever made that would be ludicrous and be a sign of a psychiological disorder I am just saying don't trust a book by it's cover. I mean if we believed everything everyone told us I would never own a Hyundai and well my tiburon has been one of the best put together cars I have owned. And I've owned Saab, Toyota, Honda all of which had some weird issues and squeaks and rattles, GM, ford, chrysler, dsm, dodge etc. I just urge everyone to do your research. I don't just think it is K&N but all the oil types if they are not serviced properly. So it is best IMO to go with the new dry hi flow filters AEM makes the one on my tiburon.
Why is it so hard to believe that corporations #1 concern is a healthy bottom line and big test and lawyers and etc will always find ways to push evidence to point in their favor so long as they are not caught red handed. PPG and BP come to mind if you want some more examples. The bottom line is that K&N is like the majority of any other company. They will sweet talk you and show you all the good information their company provides but gloss over the problems whenever they can.
I am not saying we should distrust everything ever made that would be ludicrous and be a sign of a psychiological disorder I am just saying don't trust a book by it's cover. I mean if we believed everything everyone told us I would never own a Hyundai and well my tiburon has been one of the best put together cars I have owned. And I've owned Saab, Toyota, Honda all of which had some weird issues and squeaks and rattles, GM, ford, chrysler, dsm, dodge etc. I just urge everyone to do your research. I don't just think it is K&N but all the oil types if they are not serviced properly. So it is best IMO to go with the new dry hi flow filters AEM makes the one on my tiburon.
08-19-2010 | 12:05 PM
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From: ɯooɹpǝq ɹnoʎ
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I don't think either side of the issue is going to influence the other side to change their mind. I see no point for this thread to continue - it's all assumptions and P.O.V.
08-23-2010 | 07:07 AM
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Yes you are probably right no one can change anyones view for them. I was thinking why risk the inherent headache and damage an oiled filter could give you. I am not saying it will happen for every one and I am saying it is more likely to happen when people improperly "recharge" an oil impregnated filter. but then I think of everyone who runs NOS and Alchy Meth without proper tuning or building of an engine and totally agree it is a mute point. Beside if it happens junk yard MAFs are easy to find and relatively cheap.