Air Ram Design?
12-04-2006, 11:49 AM
#21
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Those are not velocity stacks. So if you wanna get technical and make a "comparable" manifold, then you can subract $160 off that total, making it far cheaper. Using shorter runners than the Airam would also make it better for FI.
I would still rather make 2 manifolds with velocity stacks that would work better than the Airam, then sell the 2nd one to get money back on it. You would have to front some money for the material, but in the end, you'll have a cheaper and better product.
Redz, I told you it was Ross that made the parts, just didn't know the URL off the top of my head.
I would still rather make 2 manifolds with velocity stacks that would work better than the Airam, then sell the 2nd one to get money back on it. You would have to front some money for the material, but in the end, you'll have a cheaper and better product.
Redz, I told you it was Ross that made the parts, just didn't know the URL off the top of my head.
12-04-2006, 12:14 PM
#22
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Ehh, how are they not velocity stacks? Random said they were. They look like it to me. They are trumpet shaped funnels. Those 2 year old pictures with my old 1.3MP camera may not show it well, but they are. They just don't stick up in the plenum because they were designed into the base of the airram.
Even the manifolds that Ross MAKES look like that.
Looks identical. I'd take new pictures but I'm not going to take my airram apart after the ceramic coating to prove I'm right. Having the stack up in the chamber just impedes the flow and they are usually put there as an afterthought, having them in the bottom and smoothly integrated with the design improves flow. The funnel shape is the key.
It isn't cheaper, I showed that above, and I highly doubt it would be better. The sloped design on the airram is very nice.
You told me Ross Engineering, I told you there were hundreds of websites that came up for that and you ignored me. It's not Ross Engineering, it's Ross Machine Racing.
I'll come back in later and figure the pricing for 2 of them, but you still have welding and all the rest that I listed above.
Even the manifolds that Ross MAKES look like that.
Looks identical. I'd take new pictures but I'm not going to take my airram apart after the ceramic coating to prove I'm right. Having the stack up in the chamber just impedes the flow and they are usually put there as an afterthought, having them in the bottom and smoothly integrated with the design improves flow. The funnel shape is the key.
It isn't cheaper, I showed that above, and I highly doubt it would be better. The sloped design on the airram is very nice.
You told me Ross Engineering, I told you there were hundreds of websites that came up for that and you ignored me. It's not Ross Engineering, it's Ross Machine Racing.
I'll come back in later and figure the pricing for 2 of them, but you still have welding and all the rest that I listed above.
12-04-2006, 12:39 PM
#24
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Redz, how thick is the flange? The velocity stacks that I notice on the air ram from the pics provided do not look like the the stacks on the ross manifold. Similar, but the angle looks much greater on the ross manifold than the air ram. Thats just seeing it from the pictures.
They are close, probably not very noticable differences anyways.
BUT, the Airram is not the most efficient turbo manifold. Better than stock, but not the best. It's design characteristics meet that of a NA appilication.
They are close, probably not very noticable differences anyways.
BUT, the Airram is not the most efficient turbo manifold. Better than stock, but not the best. It's design characteristics meet that of a NA appilication.
12-04-2006, 12:49 PM
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Short vs long runners
Area of each runner
Straight vs Long runners
Big volume plenum vs small volume plenum
When you design your own manifold than build it, you can build it depending on where in the power band you want your torque depending on the factors I mentioned above. Also, you can add as many vacume plugs as you need, you can add which ever TB flange you wanted, you can weld in a MAP Sensor flange, you can set up dual rails with your secondary firing upstream, etc
Im not saying the air ram isn't good. It is, and has been proven but there are always better designs depending your application and goals.
Area of each runner
Straight vs Long runners
Big volume plenum vs small volume plenum
When you design your own manifold than build it, you can build it depending on where in the power band you want your torque depending on the factors I mentioned above. Also, you can add as many vacume plugs as you need, you can add which ever TB flange you wanted, you can weld in a MAP Sensor flange, you can set up dual rails with your secondary firing upstream, etc
Im not saying the air ram isn't good. It is, and has been proven but there are always better designs depending your application and goals.
12-04-2006, 01:25 PM
#27
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the air rams 'velocity stacks' arent REALLY technically stacks, but they serves mostly the same purpose.. the air ram could be modified a bit to create a smoother transition to the runners, but thats about the only difference.
i agree that the air ram isnt the best for FI, but its alot better than the stock mani, even ported and polished.
on the ross manifold, if you didnt get the velocity stacks you would still have to of have your machinist do some work to polish in that smooth 'trumpet' transition to the runners.
since the ross manifold is made out of thinner metal, velocity stacks are almost needed to get the trumpet design of the stacks, since its not cast, and as thick as the air ram. if you didnt get the stacks for the ross, it seems you would have a really hard time machining it out to get something to serve the purpose of the stacks. the reason those stacks cost soo much, it because they arent the easiest design to just go out and machine..
bottom line, the ross manifold, granted you had someone that could weld it all up for a good price, would cost a lil less than the air ram did, back when you COULD come across them.
you could have the ross one made, with velocity stacks and IM flange for probably under 500$, and have it made specifically for us boosted guys..
BOTTOM BOTTOM LINE: air ram is good for the NA application, and a custom ross manifold would be best and a lil cheaper for the FI guys.. if i had the time, and $$$ i would buy ross parts, get a manifold built, and sell my air ram.
i agree that the air ram isnt the best for FI, but its alot better than the stock mani, even ported and polished.
on the ross manifold, if you didnt get the velocity stacks you would still have to of have your machinist do some work to polish in that smooth 'trumpet' transition to the runners.
since the ross manifold is made out of thinner metal, velocity stacks are almost needed to get the trumpet design of the stacks, since its not cast, and as thick as the air ram. if you didnt get the stacks for the ross, it seems you would have a really hard time machining it out to get something to serve the purpose of the stacks. the reason those stacks cost soo much, it because they arent the easiest design to just go out and machine..
bottom line, the ross manifold, granted you had someone that could weld it all up for a good price, would cost a lil less than the air ram did, back when you COULD come across them.
you could have the ross one made, with velocity stacks and IM flange for probably under 500$, and have it made specifically for us boosted guys..
BOTTOM BOTTOM LINE: air ram is good for the NA application, and a custom ross manifold would be best and a lil cheaper for the FI guys.. if i had the time, and $$$ i would buy ross parts, get a manifold built, and sell my air ram.
12-04-2006, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (JonGTR @ Dec 4 2006, 09:20 AM)
There are a ton of threads on this. The best and cheapest thing to do is to take a stock manifold's flange and injector bungs, cut them off from the rest of the manifold, and then weld on parts from Ross Machine Racing.
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/index.htm
You could make one for half the price of the Airam.
$100 for just the plenum, runners, and end cap.
Or $256 with the velocity stacks.
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/index.htm
You could make one for half the price of the Airam.
$100 for just the plenum, runners, and end cap.
Or $256 with the velocity stacks.
cast aluminum to billet aluminum easy to weld?
12-04-2006, 01:59 PM
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^^^^^^hahahhaha no !
once you say the word cast no. If its a cast that means there is just a little aluminum in there. Its made up of several alloys so just using a tig welder won't cut it. If by chance you did get it to fuse together, your gonna have leaks all over. Even filler metals that are designed for cast alloys don't do a great job. There is special procedures to follow just to get it to fuse. Like pre-heat and post heat at certian temps, at the right times.
once you say the word cast no. If its a cast that means there is just a little aluminum in there. Its made up of several alloys so just using a tig welder won't cut it. If by chance you did get it to fuse together, your gonna have leaks all over. Even filler metals that are designed for cast alloys don't do a great job. There is special procedures to follow just to get it to fuse. Like pre-heat and post heat at certian temps, at the right times.
12-04-2006, 04:25 PM
#30
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I've never said the airram was the best, there are things I don't like about it, and I KNOW we can make something better, I have no doubt, but at what cost? That's my issue. The airrams are about the best that is made for us, and considering there is OEM and the Airram, that's pretty good.
LOL
Which flange?
The one on the bottom where the runners come in? No idea. Remember, the airram is CAST and then cleaned up by machine, so that taper is in there, in the mold. After having mine apart some time ago and taking those pictures, you definately could clean up the insides some more and make a better funnel on it, reduce some of the flat space between the runner holes and the like.
If I were to redesign the airram, I would do the following.
1. Shorten the runners from the head flange to where they curve up.
2. Clean up the inside where the TB flange is, if you look in that opening, it is has some stuff in the way on the left.
3. Open up the runners more, specificaly at the end of the head flange.
4. Adjust the TB flange so it sits straight instead of cocked at an angle. There is no reason for that angle at all.
5. Open the TB flange to 70MM.
6. Reduce the height of the plenum/surge tank at the TB opening to the same as the flange, currently it goes in and UP, then angles down to the left.
This is about all I can think of.
Yeah, they aren't identical I suppose, and one of the pics I posted has closer runners than the other. If I get my engine apart again soon, I'll take pics with my MUCH better camera I have now. Defiantely room for improvement there also.
Very true. I will probably keep the airram unless I decide to go Turbo Charged with my RD2 and something better comes along with shorter runners. I really wish I could do a centrifigual SC on the front like the RIPP design and keep the Airram, but once something better comes along, I'll probably either sell it or put it on the RD1.
LOL
QUOTE (tanc @ Dec 4 2006, 12:39 PM)
Redz, how thick is the flange?
Which flange?
The one on the bottom where the runners come in? No idea. Remember, the airram is CAST and then cleaned up by machine, so that taper is in there, in the mold. After having mine apart some time ago and taking those pictures, you definately could clean up the insides some more and make a better funnel on it, reduce some of the flat space between the runner holes and the like.
If I were to redesign the airram, I would do the following.
1. Shorten the runners from the head flange to where they curve up.
2. Clean up the inside where the TB flange is, if you look in that opening, it is has some stuff in the way on the left.
3. Open up the runners more, specificaly at the end of the head flange.
4. Adjust the TB flange so it sits straight instead of cocked at an angle. There is no reason for that angle at all.
5. Open the TB flange to 70MM.
6. Reduce the height of the plenum/surge tank at the TB opening to the same as the flange, currently it goes in and UP, then angles down to the left.
This is about all I can think of.
QUOTE
The velocity stacks that I notice on the air ram from the pics provided do not look like the the stacks on the ross manifold. Similar, but the angle looks much greater on the ross manifold than the air ram. Thats just seeing it from the pictures.
Yeah, they aren't identical I suppose, and one of the pics I posted has closer runners than the other. If I get my engine apart again soon, I'll take pics with my MUCH better camera I have now. Defiantely room for improvement there also.
QUOTE
BUT, the Airram is not the most efficient turbo manifold. Better than stock, but not the best. It's design characteristics meet that of a NA appilication.
Very true. I will probably keep the airram unless I decide to go Turbo Charged with my RD2 and something better comes along with shorter runners. I really wish I could do a centrifigual SC on the front like the RIPP design and keep the Airram, but once something better comes along, I'll probably either sell it or put it on the RD1.